[johnce59]

I'm sure that I'm going to get flamed but a little controversy is fun now and then.
It seems that half inch groups get thrown around a lot on this board like almost all factory varmint rifles are capable of that kind of accuracy. I also read posts that say " my new Ruger 204 shoots in the 2's and 3's". I must be doing things all wrong because I have not found a factory rifle that consistently shoots a half inch or better. I know there are exceptions but a half inch rifle is a real keeper. What amazes me even more is when you see someone trying to sell a rifle and they claim it shoots in the 2's. Are these folks looking for something that consistently shoots in the 1's?
Should have saved the money I spent on the Nasika and Hart actions if I could buy a Ruger off the shelf that shoots in the 2's and 3's!
Flame away fella's, just something that I've noticed.

 

[jnyork]

I have always suspected there are a lot of one-shot groups bragged about on these boards.

 

[MTGunner]

1/2" very good groups for factory, IMHO.

Usually any factory rifle that is capable of shooting a 1/2" group @ 100yds. has had some TLC. By that I mean the rifle would probably have had the bbl. broken in with meticulous care and cleaned properly thru out the entire process. The trigger would have been adjusted to aleviate the factory setting. Perhaps the groups were shot off of a solid bench, with a good windage rifle rest and rear bag. The loads would probably have been tailor made for that rifle. It is possible to get 1/2" groups from a factory rifle within reason and with some tweaking of the rifle. Something smaller, it is possible mind you, but I am always skeptical. My 2 cents.

 

[GonHuntin]

Need to specify 3 shot groups or 5 shot groups too! I have one factory rifle that will shoot 5 shot 1/2 inch groups......it's a Remington 700 LTR in 308.......also have an AR that will do it, but it has a Wilson barrel so I don't know if it would be considered factory. Several other rifles in my safe will put 3 shots in 1/2" ......of course, conditions must be right to shoot those kinds of groups......and I have to sacrifice a cat at 1:07 a.m. during the full moon too......but that's another discussion!

 

[Mortis]

Question......

If a rifle has been disassembled, been both glass & pillar bedded, stock opened to insure floating, trigger polished and tweaked, then reassembled. Does this still qualify as a factory rifle?

Just looking for a definition here.

 

[xbr]

You're right On

A gun that shoots half inch groups does it with 5 shoot most of the time. The exception being a larger or smaller group. A gun this shoot 2 inch group most of the time and a half inch once in awhile is a 2 inch gun. I have shoot a bunch of factory guns, must be I'm unlucky as well. I never had one that was a half inch gun. The only exception was a savage 12bvss which I dislike everyting about it, except how it shoot. It was close to half inch.

I finally gave up and started having remington actions trued and rebarreled. Now I have half inch guns. But I probably saved money in the long run.

 

[CTKen]

Consider this as well: how many shooters are 1/2" shooters "all day long"? If you do indeed have a piece of hardware that will do it, how many of us are talented enough to drive it without a mistake group after group to keep at the magical 1/2" mark? Darn few of us, I suspect. I know I can't. Yes, I have my small share of groups that meet or beat the 1/2" mark, but I don't think I am, or ever will be, good enough to do it over and over. Too many variables.

And the occasional group of less than 1/2" doesn't make it a 1/2" shooter "all day long". If I had to put a quantity on it, I'd set the bar at 80% or better of all groups, with all counted, even that one that you called the flyer on; you shot it, it counts.

 

[Stormbringer]

I have only seen two in my collection........

One was a Savage 112 BVSS in 223. For the first 7K rounds or so it would consistenly shoot 5 shot groups of .5" or better. It did shoot two groups in the high .1's. I currently have a Winchester Stealth II in 243 WSSM that is an honest .5" 5 shot group rifle with two handloads.

I have many other factory rifles that will shoot into 3/4 or 5/8 but no others that shoot .5 or better.

I have a near new Savage 10FP in 308 that is showing promise in the initial load work but I can not call it an honest .5" 5 shot rifle until the load work is complete and more rounds go down the barrel.

I think a lot of people exagerate. A rifle that occasionally shoots .5" for 5 shots is not a rifle that truly averages .5".

Mike.

 

[cappopper]

factory rifles

you have to know which factory rifles to buy and how to tune both the rifle and load. after reaching a certain point of accuracy,

many are not concerned with averaging .5" (aggregate of 5 5-shot groups), they would rather go hunting instead.

 

[cappopper]

factory rifles

winchester heavy varmint factory rifle

 

[Bear]

I have a safe full of half inch guns.

My african guns are so brutal I can only fire them once. The 416 and the 404 Jeffry make nice neat little group-s of less than 1/2 inch, just barely. The big hurdle is trying to get the 700 Nitro Express into a 1/2 inch hole.
Damn details!.........

 

[Rocky Raab]

I'd suspect that consistent half-inch, five-shot groups from a completely unaltered factory rifle are pretty rare. Not impossible, just pretty darn rare.

An observation from a half-century of shooting and reading about shooting, if you allow me...

In the 50s, gun writers wrote with large pride and some small amazement about any factory rifles and ammo capable of consistent groups of two inches. Those were largely big game rifles; varminting wasn't the widespread deal it is today. Shooters never took accuracy for granted; they often had to work for it.

In the 70s and 80s, we began to see the growth in computer-controlled manufacturig coupled with growth in accuracy (varmint and target) shooting. Better guns and better ammo began to allow consistent groups in the one-inch range. Shooters began to expect one-inch groups from such guns. Maybe it was the birth of instant gratification or the 'gimme' generation, but we expected it without effort.

Today, we seem to be edging towards an "everything is perfect - and ought to be" mentality. Some are no longer satisfied with anything that isn't automatically better than every other similar thing that can be bought. It is necessarily better because it is ours. If it isn't, it must be somebody else's fault. Forgive me if that sounds like an old fart's acid musings, but it seems to be an impression.

Meanwhile, in the real world, real rifles pretty much shoot in the one-inch neighborhood most of the time. Sometimes they shoot a bit larger, sometimes a bit smaller. But believe me, if Jack O'Connor were to pick up a random sample of today's rifles and ammo, he'd swoon. Even if it didn't shoot monotonous half-inch groups.

 

[CJ in Wy]

I didnt think I could shoot ½"

Till I got ahold of a bench gun,even then its just pullin the trigger and not messing it up with this unit.
Baught a Ruger 308VLE once apon a time that come with a bugghole group,the guy didnt lie I shot a bugghole with it ONCE!!The rest of the groups averaged well over an inch though
My favorite way to judge a gun is to throw it up on the hood of the truck and see if I can kill a prairie dog with it.........most work OK.
This group for instance is a 19 round clip fired from an AR at 100yards off the hood of the truck.Shot all six dots first and then start over from the top(the barrel was HOT when done ).Should have acounted for the wind and the groups are not that great...............just real! So many times you se a group all trimmed up to show only the good ones

 

[jnyork]

:
My favorite way to judge a gun is to throw it up on the hood of the truck and see if I can kill a prairie dog with it.........most work OK.

YES!!!

 

[kaferhaus]

In over 40yrs of shooting I've learned there's two things paramount to accuracy and without those two, I don't care what you do the rifle will not consistently shoot half inch groups.

Good barrels and good bullets.

There's not a factory barrel out there on a mass produced gun that's worth a damn as far as real accuracy is concerned.

There's a damned rare exception of crap just happening to "work right", but it's very rare.

Usually it also takes a premium bullet and very good reloading skills to get a rifle to shoot that well.

When you start getting under that magic half inch, then the shooter's ability along with even better equipment comes more into play.

These factory barrels shooting .2s and 3s are BS. and the ones shooting half inchers are very rare.

Quality mass produced varmint rifles are good for .75 or there abouts with a competent trigger puller and handloads. Some of them won't shoot that well I don't care who is pulling the trigger or loading for them.

I had a factory Savage that shot in the .3s...... twice. It was at the end of the day while working up loads. Ran home loaded up a bunch of that same exact load and went back to the range the next week...... same conditions, same load, same rifle.... shot in the .6s all day.

I've since shot that rifle 100s of times..... shoots in the .6s.....

Many guys would advertise that rifle as a .3 rig.

 

[GLWenzl]

Hmmm.... No flames here and guess that I don't pay that close of attention to know that there are that many 1/2" factory guns...

FWIW I brought home a factory CZ 204 with only one intention in mind and that was to rechamber to a 204 Habu Shrew. Brought home a box of Hornady 32s and a box of 40 gr bullets. No barrel break in no flyer shots just open a box of 40s and shot 5 shoots at on target then 5 of the 32s (at 100 yards). After all 40 rounds were shot the 32s ave around .4" and the 40s did 1.1"

I am not a great shooter but them were the facts that day... Yes I was happy on the nice groups, yes it was hard to chop the barrel and rechamber, yes it has never shot as well as the factory barrel and yes I am happy I did what I did.....

Factory riffle with factory ammo... Now ya got me wondering if I was smoking something that day??? Uhhh... nope.... LOL

 

[JRinKY]

I have only one....

An old Remington 700 heavy bbl Varmit in .223 Late 1970's vintage. George in KY has an exact twin of mine which will do the same. Actually with Match Bullets their only limiting factor to their acuracy seems to be the shooter. If you say "all day long" Not with me pulling the trigger but these 2 rifles are capable themselves (with cleaning).

 

[DAA]

Consider this as well: how many shooters are 1/2" shooters "all day long"? If you do indeed have a piece of hardware that will do it, how many of us are talented enough to drive it without a mistake group after group to keep at the magical 1/2" mark? Darn few of us, I suspect...

I'm not picking on you, honest - you just happened to be the first in the thread to post this opinion, which is shared by the vast majority. But I consider this one of the most prevalent myths in all of rifledom. I've brought it up on this board many times in the past, and pretty much nobody agrees with me. But I still believe the following to be true:

I believe MOST people are EASILY capable of shooting 1/2" groups. Very easily. Indeed, I actually believe most people can shoot off a bench better than most factory rifles are capable of. It's just that most people have never shot a really accurate rifle before, and really have no idea just how well they are capable of shooting from a bench in good conditions. I've seen a lot of people, from seasoned shooters who believed they weren't capable of shooting 1/2" groups, to people taking the first shots in their life who had no idea what a good group is, sit down behind a REALLY accurate rifle, and plunk down group-after-group-after-group under a half inch. Note - I'm talking about a good solid bench rest and GOOD conditions here. No wind doping. Just the ability to look through the scope, hold close to the same point of aim each shot and not jerk the trigger too hard. Honestly, I believe the overwhelming majority of people on this board would have to try pretty hard to shoot a group over a half inch with a really good rifle in good conditions. By "really good rifle", I mean one that is capable of averaging 1/4", or maybe even better, in truly skilled hands. Not one factory rifle in a million meets that description. In good conditions, with a rifle that accurate, you can mess up the hold by about 1/8" on every shot and still get a group under 1/2". It just ain't that hard...

But, since most people have never shot a really accurate rifle from a bench, they have no context on what it takes to shoot a half inch group. Truth be told, it don't take much, at all. It's as easy as falling off a log. But if all you have ever shot are rifles that aren't even capable of averaging under 1/2", you really have no idea how easy it really is. So most people blame the rifle, and talk about how their rifle can shoot 1/2" groups "when they do their part". When we are talking 1/2" groups and factory rifles, it's the rifle that usually isn't doing its part!

Anyway... Like I said, my personal opinion based on experience and observations. But, also like I said, I've brought it up here many times and nobody ever agrees with me. That's okay, your all just wrong, that's all, LOL!

- DAA

 

[Bear57]

I'm sure some of them exist

However, they are probably few and far between. Everything has to be just right--the wind, the shooter, ammo that's been made specifically for that rifle, etc, etc, etc. I, and I'm sure many other's have shot some of these great groups, but, to do that consistently, day in, day out.......wishfull thinking, me thinks. It's like the guy to goes to the casino and gambles, and all you hear about is how much he wins! But, does he ever talk about the times when he doesn't?

 

[keithcandler]

Wind flags sure do help a lot......

especially in conjunction with a 8-32 or other high powered scope.

The Remington Varmint's that I have had in 222 & 223 will agg below 1/2", but they also have been pillar bedded, bbl floated, trigger replaced, etc.

Very suttle changes in the wind will tear the heck out of a really good shooting rifle if you don't use wind flags. Days that are really tough are those seemingly dead calm days, but a wind flag will tell you that the wind is changing from left to right at 1-3 mph which is good for 1/2" groups with a gun that shoots in the 2's.

In our joy of having an obvious great shooting load, in our minds we establish a "norm" that fits our emotional needs. If you think that you have a rifle that shoots in the 2's, I'm tickled to death for you because it is your hobby...make it what ever you want...just be happy.