Ok, I'm having a WSSM built with a tighter neck. From experience I know annealing new brass helps the neck seal up, but I'm wondering that seeing I'm going to turn the necks if annealing would be necessary at all with the thinner necks? If so, would you anneal before or after neck turning?
Annealing & Neck Turning?
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Annealing, Before or After ?
Ole, I don't have any particular reason, but, I guess becasue of the
processes I normally go through in making "wildcat brass" I always
anneal before neck turning, then trim to length, and fireform. Is
there a particular reason why ? I guess becasue I like to anneal before
I start necking up or down to soften the brass a little. If you are not
necking up or down, don't guess it would make any difference would
it. Good luck on your WSSM.
Ole, I don't have any particular reason, but, I guess becasue of the
processes I normally go through in making "wildcat brass" I always
anneal before neck turning, then trim to length, and fireform. Is
there a particular reason why ? I guess becasue I like to anneal before
I start necking up or down to soften the brass a little. If you are not
necking up or down, don't guess it would make any difference would
it. Good luck on your WSSM.
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240 Posts
if the brass is NEW then no need to anneal before forming, turning, fire forming, etc. After doing one of these stretching, compressing, work hardening things then you should anneal.
MIke With All Due Respect
most all of the rifles that I work with are "wildcat rounds", I have always been
taught by all of the older shooters & gunsmiths that in order for the cases to
be blown out to properly fit the chamber it is necessary to anneal the brass.
The new case is going to be blown out to a different shoulder angle, and the
case walls are going to be expanded to fit the new chamber. So, I guess this
train of thought has carried over to "factory type" rounds. Some of the top
end brass already comes annealed (ie Lapua). I have found that the brass when annealed before fireforming blows out to fit the chamber easier and it
doesn't take two or three firings to get a good fireformed case. This also
helps with split necks and cracked shoulders. Granted, there is going to be
a small percentage of culls whether one anneals or not. I respect your line of
thinking, but, I will continue to anneal all my brass.
It is very apparent that we have differing opinons on annealing brass. Since
most all of the rifles that I work with are "wildcat rounds", I have always been
taught by all of the older shooters & gunsmiths that in order for the cases to
be blown out to properly fit the chamber it is necessary to anneal the brass.
The new case is going to be blown out to a different shoulder angle, and the
case walls are going to be expanded to fit the new chamber. So, I guess this
train of thought has carried over to "factory type" rounds. Some of the top
end brass already comes annealed (ie Lapua). I have found that the brass when annealed before fireforming blows out to fit the chamber easier and it
doesn't take two or three firings to get a good fireformed case. This also
helps with split necks and cracked shoulders. Granted, there is going to be
a small percentage of culls whether one anneals or not. I respect your line of
thinking, but, I will continue to anneal all my brass.
I'm no expert here, but the experience I've had so far with the WSSM's is that the necks are so thick and if you don't shoot a hot load the neck doesn't expand enough to seal of the chamber and you end up with a blackened case all the way down to the extractor groove. If I anneal the necks first the problem goes away. Of course this is with a factory chamber.
With a tighter chamber and taking the neck from a .020-.021 down to .014, I would think would change things.
Don M, I make 7mm TnT brass from Rem .308 thin walled, small primer pocket brass and I've never annealed it. Some of this brass has been shot 4 times now, should a guy anneal it?
Tom
With a tighter chamber and taking the neck from a .020-.021 down to .014, I would think would change things.
Don M, I make 7mm TnT brass from Rem .308 thin walled, small primer pocket brass and I've never annealed it. Some of this brass has been shot 4 times now, should a guy anneal it?
Tom
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329 Posts
I anneal after turning. I turned several thousand new cases for a PD shoot some years back. Calibers were .222 MAg and .22-250.
The ammo that was not shot, was stored for the future. In each caliber, about 25% of the necks cracked length wise to the base of the seated bullets, and then AROUND the base, forming a "T" shaped split in the necks.
So I started annealing after turning, and I have not had that problem since... seems that the pressure on the brass work-hardens the necks.
Now I turn, and trim, polish, and anneal.
By the way, the Hornady annealing tool is the cats buns - easy to do a few hundred an hour with perfect necks.
The ammo that was not shot, was stored for the future. In each caliber, about 25% of the necks cracked length wise to the base of the seated bullets, and then AROUND the base, forming a "T" shaped split in the necks.
So I started annealing after turning, and I have not had that problem since... seems that the pressure on the brass work-hardens the necks.
Now I turn, and trim, polish, and anneal.
By the way, the Hornady annealing tool is the cats buns - easy to do a few hundred an hour with perfect necks.
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352 Posts
Annealing Technique
Just wondering how you fellahs go about annealing your case necks. I've tried a couple ways of doing it, but would like to find a better way. Years ago when I started reloading, the advice was to put the cases in a pan of water with the water level up to the shoulder area, then heat them with a propane torch and tip them over in the water to cool after they got hot. How hot? I don't know. The other way was to hold the case with leather gloves on and turn it in the propane torch flame until it was hot. Then "quench" it by dropping in a pan of water. There are obvious shortcomings to both these methods. Some say heat them to glowing cherry red before dropping in the pan of water, others say glowing red is way too hot. Do you guys use the Tempilac stuff, and if so what temperature range? Thanks.
Just wondering how you fellahs go about annealing your case necks. I've tried a couple ways of doing it, but would like to find a better way. Years ago when I started reloading, the advice was to put the cases in a pan of water with the water level up to the shoulder area, then heat them with a propane torch and tip them over in the water to cool after they got hot. How hot? I don't know. The other way was to hold the case with leather gloves on and turn it in the propane torch flame until it was hot. Then "quench" it by dropping in a pan of water. There are obvious shortcomings to both these methods. Some say heat them to glowing cherry red before dropping in the pan of water, others say glowing red is way too hot. Do you guys use the Tempilac stuff, and if so what temperature range? Thanks.
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329 Posts
Theo...
I used to do the pan of water method, and it was awful. The heat went on one side of the case, and it was never even, and it took forever.
I now use the Hornady tool:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=360902
IT is as slik as owl poopoo. It spins the case in the propane flamem and when it turns color, you just tilt your hand and the case falles in the water... I can do over 250 cases an hour. IT comes the holders for small (222,223), 308/'06 and belted mag cases.
If I can use it, anyone can use it.
I used to do the pan of water method, and it was awful. The heat went on one side of the case, and it was never even, and it took forever.
I now use the Hornady tool:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=360902
IT is as slik as owl poopoo. It spins the case in the propane flamem and when it turns color, you just tilt your hand and the case falles in the water... I can do over 250 cases an hour. IT comes the holders for small (222,223), 308/'06 and belted mag cases.
If I can use it, anyone can use it.
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240 Posts
I do much the same as Cat does, to each his own I guess. I form 6-284 from 284 brass, 17AH, 17MK4. The only one I ever had a problem with was the 6-284 where I split the necks or shoulders on about 1/2 cuz I didnt anneal after the final form before the fire form. So I still think that its not necessary to do it if only doing the cutting and forming in 1 or 2 steps, but for fire forming on some extreme dimension changes it probably will give fewer lost cases, so I agree on that point, which I think is the only thing we differed on.
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1,346 Posts
Here ya go doc.....
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=360902
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=360902
Click on the link above to see it.
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352 Posts
Hornady Annealing kit
Item number 041220, and consists of three case holders and a bottle of Tempilac.
Doc, Go to www.hornady.com and then to metallic reloading and case care.
Item number 041220, and consists of three case holders and a bottle of Tempilac.
Work Hardned Brass
box of ammo. On all the rounds that are shot pretty hot (which is probably
all my wildcat rounds) I just make it a habit of annealing the brass after
4 or 5 firings. I may be all wet in my thoughts, but, I think it helps with
the overall life of the brass by annealing after 4 or 5 firings becasue the
brass becomes work hardened by the hot loads. This just softens up the
necks & shoulders that gets the most of the heat & work up and down.
Good luck.
Don M.
Ole, I keep records of the number of times my brass is reloaded for each
box of ammo. On all the rounds that are shot pretty hot (which is probably
all my wildcat rounds) I just make it a habit of annealing the brass after
4 or 5 firings. I may be all wet in my thoughts, but, I think it helps with
the overall life of the brass by annealing after 4 or 5 firings becasue the
brass becomes work hardened by the hot loads. This just softens up the
necks & shoulders that gets the most of the heat & work up and down.
Good luck.
Don M.
CatShooter, Right now it takes me a minimum of 30 seconds to anneal a case using a pair of pliers and a propane tourch in a dark room. I am holding the tourch between my legs. I have to keep a grip on the pliers all the time. All this is an accident waiting to happen. Can you really do a few hundred an hour? It takes me an hour to do a hundred if I am lucky.
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329 Posts
Yup...
Here's what I do now, (after annealing cases in a pan of water for 26 years)
For propane, I use the Coleman tanks, cuz they are short and fat, instead of long and skinny - it makes it easy to stand them on the bench with the torch going, so I don't have to hold it. Holding a lit propane tank between your legs is threat to your "goodies".
Go here...
http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-45819/Detail
I use the Bigass Burnzomatic "Jumbo #680" torch head, (not the whimpy #681)
Go here...
http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomat...rnzoProd100019
I bought the short propane bottles and the Jumbo tourch at True Value (No I don't work for them
)Here's how I did it the first time (A), and how I do it now (B).
"A" - I set the torch bottle on the right side of the bench with the flame pointing to the left. In the middle, I put a large coffee can 1/2 full of water. I use a battery powered screwdrived, with the Hornady case holder in it.
I hold the screw driver in my left hand... OK.
I put a case in the holder, switch on the driver, and hold the case in the flame. If I want to anneal just the neck, I hold the neck in the flame... if I want to anneal the neck AND shoulder (for case forming an Ackley or Gibbs), I hold the neck and shoulder in the flame... in about 10 seconds +/-, the neck (or neck/shoulder) will turn color, a blue-ish straw color. I let off the switch, the screwdriver stops (immediately), and I tilt my hand so the case falls neck first in the water, by then I have picked up a new case with my right hand, and put it right in the holder and it starts all over again... Real "mass production"!! If I pushed myself, I could probably do 300 an hour.
It is SOOOooooo fast, compaired to doing it a pan of water... plus, the cases look like factory annealing (like a Lapua case
).Now - Plan "B"
I spoke to a metalergist who worked for Lake City in the case division., and he said:
"Dummy, do you think we made 1,200,000 cases a day and dropped them in water??? How would we get them dry in time to load them??"
He told me that the water was not necessary, that it came from a "hand over" from the water pan days. He said that I just needed to drop the cases on something (anything) that wouldn't be damaged by the heat, and a short distance so the case necks wouldn't be damaged.
I was doubtful at first, but I put temperature paste on the rim/head area of a case, and tried it, and he was right - the neck was annealed fine, but the paste on the head did NOT turn color.
So tried a batch of .22-250, without water, and they were the best I have ever done. I droped them about 6-7" onto a pad made of an old washcloth.
Another advantage of not using water is that the cases are ready to load in 20 minutes (to cool off), instead of a day or more to dry out.
So that's my experence. I might add that there is a fellow that makes an automatic annealing machine, and he doesn't use water either... the machine just drops the cases in a pile.
I'm sure that 20 guys will pipe in and tell you that none of this will work, but this is how I do it and I have been annealing cases for 30 years (26 in pans of water), and using the Hornady tool for 3 or 4 years.
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